Is South Africa socially and economically better, worse, or the same after Apartheid?
After the end of Apartheid in South Africa, and since blacks have ruled the government; is South Africa better, worse, or the same?
Explain.
Lets talk economics. Economically South Africa has measurably suffered great losses- however, this was bound to happen. One cannot compare the country south africa is now, with apartheid south africa, there is no longer a huge population indentured by poverty and their situation to produce- this economic downturn is bound to happen whilst South Africa migrates from an agrarian virtually slave-based labour force to more automated systems of labour. I believe it is a matter of growing pains, with the alleviation of slavery and massive social reform, comes decades of unrest and the surfacing of hatreds both modern and ancient.
Though this is unfortunate, it is an inevitability, whilst apartheid, economically speaking, worked, so did slavery in america- and whilst its abolition has created its own set of problems, they are better problems to have, in my opinion then the moral dilemmna, and the downright evil nature that apartheid presented itself with.
Afrikaans who reminisce about the good old days don't have any concept of compassion (or find compassion incidental when compared to greed) for those who are not of their colour- they proved it under apartheid by the shocking conditions they forced onto the South African people and continue to prove it with their comments now. Unfortunately, it is this attitude that is largely responsible for the hatred of the newly freed blacks of south africa.
Voting me down? I'd love a logical refutation with that please- but something tells me all you are capable of is a racist diatribe.
*edit*
To answer the the post below, i never labelled all south afrikaans as racist- what i said was that those who reminisce about the old days are willfully forgetting that the apartheid era meant so many horrors for so many people. You must forgive me, but i think that you are mistaking me for generalising when i was pointing out trends. I take it for granted that people understand that when one talks about for example, an undercurrent of socialism in australia- that doesn't mean for a second that all australians are socialist, just like when one talks of an undercurrent of hatred in south africa, this doesn't mean that all south africans are full of hate, i thought this elementary knowledge so didn't state it previously. My apologies.
As i read your post i was very pleased to see such keen mind at work with an eye for solutions. There is hate, i have worked with south Afrikaans, i have heard them speak, older mates then myself lived over there as whites for some period under Apartheid- also, reading the above comments, how can you not see that hatred is fresh and prominent still in your country? This state of denial in an otherwise obviously very thoughtful individual puzzles me.
Do you think that Israel and the ADL are cowards for not addressing antisemitism at Durban 2?
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South Africa has lost some of its best educated professionals and technicians since then. . . .Militarily it is not as strong as it used to be . You be the judge based on that. Additionally in the International world it is now being viewed as a Third World Country and lost the status of the most advanced country in Africa. The rest of the world just see it as another corrupt black government.
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Daily Mail, Newsweek, Jane's. . . .
Well that depends.
If you are black life is way way better.
Like would get Bantu Education I would not be aloud to go to certain place.
I would be cleaning someone bathroom now and doing hard labour.
I would basically be a slave.
I am sure the internet would be censored like in China.
I would be forced to address any white person as Baas or Madam.
I would be forced to speak Afrikaans.
I would not get any health care.
I would not have running water and electricity.
Basically I would not be recognized as a human being.
But if you are white life really sucks now in SA.
Well they are not guaranteed a jobs like before there is more competition now.
They have to work hard like everyone around the world.
The police use to be like private security just for white before but now the are protecting the whole country which means their resources are stretched.
As a result just like us they can't hop skip around at night just like anywhere in the world.
To tell you the truth whites did not have to do sh!t and their lives would be sorted during apartheid.
Life was good if you were white even International TV shows had to be translated to Afrikaans just for you.
You got free health care and free secoundary and tertiary education.
But now the bubble has popped and life sucks for those who did not take the advantage of the free education.
So sad ne'.
They had the chance to unite and build a strong country but they were too greedy they just wanted everything for themselve.
What a missed opportunity its like missing a the winning penalty in a world cup final.
History will all ways see them as the evil white oppressors which is the sad truth.
*******
John W
The truth hurts ne'
After all that free education and free jobs you got during apartheid.
You still don't have any class.
You are pathetic mate.
But hey I don't blame you.
Because thats what happens when your mother is your dads daughter who is your sister.
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I see Ayiza is as usual spreading incoherent lies and deceit, the simple truth of the matter is that as you can see from Ayiza's reply, he belongs in the garden digging out weeds, cutting he grass and washing the white mans car.
South Africa has deteriorated under majority rule to such an extent that the glory of yesterday and the first world infrastructure that was put in place by whitey over many decades is now all but destroyed over a period of less than 15 years.
A corrupt, inept, kleptomaniac and marxist government has been voted in to govern by an ignorant and illiterate majority who refuse to acknowledge the plundering of the thieving ANC dogs as well as their mass genocide that is inflicted on the white population on a daily basis by means of a government planned crime wave.
Babies younger than 2 years and the elderly and infirm are raped and violently attacked every hour, the country has become the crime capital of the world with murder rates higher than war zones under ANC rule.
The country is now home to over 3.5 million illigal Zimbabwean immigrants all due to the ANC expressly approving of the actions of their dictator ally to the north, Robert Mugabe.
We have leaders who believe and propagate the science that HIV does not cause AIDS and that the cure for these diseases are beetroot, garlic, the rape of infants or else a shower after rape to wash away the virus.
Government ministers are involved in mass fraud and corruption on a daily basis with impunity as evidenced by the Oilgate and Arms Deals scandals.
All government departments are a disgrace at best, special notice should however be given to healhcare and education which are now amongst the worst in the world.
Any criticism directed towards the pack of thieves of the ANC is labelled as racism in the African tradition of blaming everything other than their inherent ineptitude for their self created chaos and destruction.
The only productive members of society, ie, the whites, are being driven from their homeland by the violence and decay that is spread by the majority government and once their numbers decrease to below a certain threshold, South Africa will join the rest of their brothers on the African continent as he next begging bowl case for Bono and Geldof to rescue.
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Socially:
In terms of jobs, education and civil rights, if your not white yes and if you are white no.
Other issues like the crime and corruption and legal system have gotten way worse.
Economically: yes we have experience good GDP growth over the last few years and we have substantially reduced fiscal debt.
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Lets talk economics. Economically South Africa has measurably suffered great losses- however, this was bound to happen. One cannot compare the country south africa is now, with apartheid south africa, there is no longer a huge population indentured by poverty and their situation to produce- this economic downturn is bound to happen whilst South Africa migrates from an agrarian virtually slave-based labour force to more automated systems of labour. I believe it is a matter of growing pains, with the alleviation of slavery and massive social reform, comes decades of unrest and the surfacing of hatreds both modern and ancient.
Though this is unfortunate, it is an inevitability, whilst apartheid, economically speaking, worked, so did slavery in america- and whilst its abolition has created its own set of problems, they are better problems to have, in my opinion then the moral dilemmna, and the downright evil nature that apartheid presented itself with.
Afrikaans who reminisce about the good old days don't have any concept of compassion (or find compassion incidental when compared to greed) for those who are not of their colour- they proved it under apartheid by the shocking conditions they forced onto the South African people and continue to prove it with their comments now. Unfortunately, it is this attitude that is largely responsible for the hatred of the newly freed blacks of south africa.
Voting me down? I'd love a logical refutation with that please- but something tells me all you are capable of is a racist diatribe.
*edit*
To answer the the post below, i never labelled all south afrikaans as racist- what i said was that those who reminisce about the old days are willfully forgetting that the apartheid era meant so many horrors for so many people. You must forgive me, but i think that you are mistaking me for generalising when i was pointing out trends. I take it for granted that people understand that when one talks about for example, an undercurrent of socialism in australia- that doesn't mean for a second that all australians are socialist, just like when one talks of an undercurrent of hatred in south africa, this doesn't mean that all south africans are full of hate, i thought this elementary knowledge so didn't state it previously. My apologies.
As i read your post i was very pleased to see such keen mind at work with an eye for solutions. There is hate, i have worked with south Afrikaans, i have heard them speak, older mates then myself lived over there as whites for some period under Apartheid- also, reading the above comments, how can you not see that hatred is fresh and prominent still in your country? This state of denial in an otherwise obviously very thoughtful individual puzzles me.
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I think we are slowly getting worse off.
Dont get me wrong; apartheid was an abhorrent system, but things actually worked then. These days you dont need to look far in newspapers to see how our infrastructure is crumbling. It is as if the ruling party is trying to get rid of anything white;
witness the name change debacles (when most of our citizens are impoverished, undereducated etc, theyre worried about silly little names?! Pathetic). Also, i think the crime levels and the outbreak of MDR-TB speak volumes about the level of mismanagement of our goverment.
I place the blame solely on the ANC. At a time when they should be bettering the lives of all South Africans that live here (its been 13 years since democracy, and we STILL have townships all over the place), they are imbroiled in their own infighting and denying anything that might cast Ol' Thabz in a bad light. If this attitude of yesmanship continues in the ruling party, we will go the same way as Zimbabwe.
At least we're better off socially; we now longer live in the grip of fear (yes, whites were scared too, ever heard of the "Swart Gevaar" or "Rooi Gevaar" propaganda tools?), and everyone has the same rights to vote, freedom of speech,association etc; we r even the first african state to recognize gay marriages. But all this will come to nought unless the ANC cleans it house, or is removed from power.
Way – When last were you in SA? Did you see for yourself the so-called hate that presently exists btwn blacks & whites? Most ppl here have gotten over apartheid, and we are living quite comfortably together; sure there might be hiccups, but nothing on the level you are indicating. We are trying to pick up the pieces (even if the ANC is doing nothing to help) and i think we're doing a damn good job. The only problem in this country is the good-for-nothing yeoman the once respected ANC has become.
Im thumbing you down, not because i disagree with you, but because you think we are all rascists.
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I take that you wanted honest answers based on provable facts….and not hate speech that is characteristic of this Section on issues of this nature. It’s a fact that answers to this question will mainly be based on racial division…..you would only get total negative answers from SOME whites……and total positive answers from blacks…..the reason for this is because we come from totally different backgrounds……proof are the answers by Ayiza and John W…..you’d realise that while Ayiza has tried to be factual in his answer (save for his response to John W) he received 3 thumbs down ……..on the contrary, John W said nothing other than puffing racism….he received two thumbs up……that how polluted our social fabric, as regards racial harmony, is.
Now my answer to your question is…… I agree with the context of Ayiza’s answer….Socially, blacks have gained a lot……I don’t think that whites have lost, except that they are no longer enjoying those privileges alone……. I now have access to the same services which were an exclusive for whites, like social security, education, water and sanitation, electricity etc……. whites are not denied these things……. There’s this sticky issue of employment equity (commonly called Affirmative Action), while I support it for adult population, I believe it should be reviewed in order to level the field for those who started going to school in 1994…….it would be fair if the children who were not subjected to racial segregation at school are treated the same……….the problem however is that most of our civil servants are useless…….they should have ensure that AA is strictly implemented from the beginning, now were are still seated with a backlog…..still, I don’t believe that we must let the children suffer because of their parents’ ineptness…………..
Economically, blacks have gained little…….while there is an outcry about the country’s Black Economic Empowerment, that it is disadvantaging whites, such disadvantage is not unfair and in fact stats show that whites still enjoy lion’s share of our economy………one should also take into account that the country’s GDP has never been below the 1994 level……. The truth is that the economy is still mainly in whites’ hands…….
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South Africa would be much better off without the mindset of people like John W and Ayiza. Both are petty racists who suffer of an acute case of tunnel vision.
"Red nou 'n nasie…"
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Hello this is MR Cash
I dont remember free secoundary or tertiary education Ayiza??????? Where did you stumble on that??
Its like saying all White people have money, when the reality is that 33% of white people in South Africa are living under the bread line!!
Anyway of course South Africa is alot worse!!What successful African country is there in the world? None!!
The govertment has a secret agenda to push all the white people out of South Africa eg farm murders etc etc
Most white people are looking to emigrate and take their skills elswhere!
We had one of the best Milirary in the world, the best civil service in the world, we were first world!! etc etc etc
Now we have bumbling f.ucking monkeys who f.uck everything our forefathers have worked for in 15 years!!
It is so hard to climb and so easy to slide!
I know of many black people who say that Apartheid was better for them, they had work they had food etc now thay have nothing!
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http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20070828041048776C285103
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Economically _ Much better, just have a look at any of the economic indicators. (That is much better than most of the time that anyone currently on Yahoo ever personally experienced. – but not as good as the Gold and Ostrich feather heydays!)
Socially – I thank God (AND I really do that frequently), that we do not have the anally retentive, calvinist narrow-minded, stupid society that we used to have and that I was part of. I am appreciative that we have opened to world views and that we have grown to become more tolerant.
MAN we are fortunate!
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Of course I think socially and economically RSA is far better than during apartheid. That's just my view. I reckon now a larger number of south africans have greater access to opportunities, education and other amenities. There's this air of freedom that surrounds the country now than before and more people are at least happy now. If the psychological aspect is good, I reckon RSA can move into the future with a lot of hope. Everybody has got to work hard for what they get, and of course naturally the government is still correcting a few imbalances here and there. Its fine, it's getting there, I love south africa's prospect.
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Socially worse. Whites are seen as racist (still) but in fact blacks are bigger racist. They can do what they want, when they feel like it & it is their right, but when a white does the exact same thing, blacks call them racists. Their is no fairness at all. Crime has increased to a state where SA is seen as being in the top 5 corrupt countries in the world. There are much more rapes, murders & violent crimes now, than in the Apartheid era.
Economically…. there are 2 sides to that. Only the corrupt & rich benefit from the growing economy, while the rest are struggling to make ends meet. The poor get poorer & the rich scheme & bribe & get richer. SA is at a stage where the economy is growing, but there are more & more people sitting without jobs, or the means to support their families & that is why there is such a huge increase in crime, because they need the money to feed themselves & their families.
Even though the new government did open doors for SA to the rest of the world, it closed doors to the majority of it's citizens, as most of us bear the high costs of fuel & the rising prices in basics such as electricity, clean water & food.
Very few of the promises the new government made, have been met over the last 13 years since they took over in 1994. There are still people living here with no electricity & no running water or even available clean water.
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Headed the same way as Zimbabwe and just another African basket case.The whole of Africa is living history to what happens to Countries when you allow a backward race into positions they cannot hold. The answers of the ANC's Ayiza and Zim$ sum up the mentality of these people who unfortunately are gullible and fall easily to the predators such as Amin,Mugabe,Kenyatta and Mandela.
Guess they will be on the TV screens again soon with the flies crawling out their noses and the bottomless Begging Bowl in hand.
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I really cant say much about what happened before '94 but my parents tell me it was baaaaad. I called my dad before giving this answer and he says blacks are better off. So my answer is that we are better off. Unfortunately it will remain a black and white perspective for some time to come.
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Economically much better. With bands and trade barriers removed, their is alot more flow of goods ad services entering our country. And also wth the availability of resource and the qual rights for all, Naturally this is makng our economy boom.
Socially, there's still alot of wounds to heal. Black still resents white for all their ancestors did. Blacks still thik whites are racist.
And black sort of have an outright reenge now by obaining all jobs, position in government etc.
The wounds of all the people in SA still has a long way to go before they healed!!!
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ha , ha, ha,ha, where you been all this time, Is humanity ready to hear the truth ?
No matter what is the questions or the answers and no matter what we think we are or what we thinks about who we are ,meaning either prisoner or the warden , rich or poor, you eat meat or beans you love or you hate you except or reject ,leftist or rightist , black or white ,religious or atheist, and all other species living with us on planet earth and beyond which we all share a common bond that's we are really one ,but there is a down side to our existence a hidden secret which kept from us and they continue to suppress the truth and to protect their system of deception from crumbling , and humanity will be free ,but are you really wants to know ,are you ready , I hope so ,and I hope SO called man in authority read it and TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE GAME IS AGAINST ALL OF US , HERE COMES THE TRUTH MY FRIENDS THAT WE ALL LIVING ON THIS PLANET AS A GUINEA PIGS , LIKE REALLY ANIMAL FARM FOR EXPERIMENTS. PURE AND SIMPLE LABORATORY
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